Thank you DeliciousDemar for your kind words.

As everybody knows, I never hided the risk of AON. Well i think the possibility to lose all is = in real life than second life investments, but in real life with leverage, the ruin can arrive sooner....and also the success. We/me always have been as transparent as we can, via the blog:  www.aoninvestment.blogspot.com or the forum of ACe and the group in world. I think our communication policy with partners/shareholders is fluent. Also, we are one of the rare company that publish financial reports http://www.ace-exchange.com/financials/history/AON

Must be enough clear this poll is not in name of AON´s shareholders. I didn´t ask them what they think. Thisis a private poll launched by me to know the opinon of ISE. I think ACE is a nice market, but can be better..a lot better. I know no market is perfect, but I like some aspects of ISE, like the community, the liquidity, transparency of companys, and of course the fees and other concepts i cant remind now.

caspertrebuchet wrote:

"I'm less optimisitc. Dealing wih third parties money in RL means that you act as a financial intermediary. If you do with the money of more than 10 persons you already classify as one at least where I live in Switzerland. The consequences are not fun at all, it means that you need a licenze and get audited by authorized legal bodies.

it might be that in West Africa you have a more liberal regulation...but dealing with any SL money in RL is calling for a number of problems and it is even not a question whether you are trustworthy or we should have faith in you.

You might act in a bagatelle environment now. However, if Fortuna is sending you luck and scammers copy your concept in SL then good luck. It is easy to imagine the outcome. The reactions will be different than in the case of WSE and MIL as RL is related. Then SL will shut down those stock exchanges in a nutshell what I wouldn't like.

We should concentrate on projects which are adding value through activities in SL and not those gambling in RL and ignoring regulation.

Unless you are a legalized financial intermediary in RL."

------------------------------------------------------------
1. "Dealing with third parties money in RL" 

Aon investors are not a third party. Are co-owner of this fund.

2. My avatar say "west africa" cause i live in a island. But my country is Spain and the laws are the Europeans laws. Switerzland is not Europe in fact.

3. "If fortuna is sending you luck" 

I dont need luck to work, only effort. I prefer let the luck for gamblers.

4. "We shoud concentrate on projects wich are adding value through activities in SL and not those gamblign in RL and ignoring regulation"

About this last, I dont think a project in sl add alot of value, all SL project are very limited. But you are very unrespectulf saying "those gambling in Rl"..cause trade the euro-usd, the future of the sp500 or any other financial product is a work i have developed for my last 3 years, with a lof of effort. My contribution to the society is supply liquidity to the market. That liquidity that the "serious" mutual funds need to sell when nobody want to buy and buy when nobody wants to sell. 

Im not ignoring regulation, In spain is 100% legal to have "investment clubs", even I know an investment club with a size of 2 millions of euros (very rare in fact). Is true we dont have statutes yet, but we will create our estatutes soon. The spanish laws and statutes are very clear about eductaive funds, created by friend to learn about investment.

So, please, dont be unrespectul and understand we are suject to the spanish and european law about educative funds (funds created with investment purposes)...as far as I dont take comission for trade, I sahre my ideas in my blog, etc etc. Look where we are in an "exchange" in secondl life, the perfect enviroment for learn. or not?

This is the true.

Last edited by HugoLeckrone (2009-06-09 04:53:28)

The worst insult for a trader is calling us GAMBLERs.

We use technics and we add a service to the society (supply liquidity).

I dont offer any kind of service, you are absolutly wrong, we are an EDUCATIVE FUND. I dont have salary, o I dont take fees. I share investmetn ideas, and simulate a fund in an exchange in second life. Well, sorry for be lazzy creating the estatutes, AON started to work effectively 15 days ago. But we are in the spanish and european laws. Not in the laws of that country full of "black" money called Swizerland.

My purpose is to simulate a fund, for gain experience for create a real one in the future.

AndyGrant wrote:

caspertrebuchet wrote:

I don't want to insult you or be unrespectul...

Casper, one thing i'd like to see less of on these exchanges is your continous negativity & trolling to any change, even your own portfolio is almost unchanged since you relisted from WSE.

yeah, yeah, somebody has to go the "Trollstigen" if others are so euphorical....explore the limits on both ends and you will get a reasonable average...as long as you are opposing this will work...;-)

Yes, indeed, you caught me here, only small changes...with good reasons?

AndyGrant wrote:

When a listed business invests into fullprim sims which are sold @ 1000 USD from an RL company called Linden Research Inc, for business, fictional or educational purposes, isn't that transaction RW ?

Should listed companies, hide the fact they invest into land, for safety reasons ?

Andy,  no virtual companies have real property in this case.  When a listed company purchases a sim it does so through a trustee.  LL recognizes that sole RW person as the owner of the sims, which creates the RW transaction.

I see what you are getting at though.  I guess its whether you want to invest in a virtual company where you can see and play in your investment, or trust that someone acting as an investment professional is doing a good job.  In both cases parties would act as trustees.  It's just that one lives in a legally grey area.

Forgive me for asking this, but in an investment club aren't all members supposed to weigh in on the investing decisions and day-to-day operations of the club?  If someone is solely investing others money for return isn't that a 3rd party relationship regardless invested ownership?  Knowing that a majority of large brokerage firm employees own shares in thier brokerage, one could argue under this logic that the brokerages are nothing but large investment clubs and therefore shouldn't be subject to regulation.  I would like to understand more about this....

I would think when we are talking government oversight the details might matter, but then again maybe not   Since you can't really enforce anything legally in SL anyway....however once that barrier is broken and cases established and recorded it will be interesting to see how liability is dealt with going forward.  I think we are years and years from that though.  (Edit: If ever, most consider it "a game" afterall)

In an investment club the bylaws would be written to give the investing party the authority to make desicions on behalf of the group, but the group would still give guidance unless written otherwise.  I suppose one could argue that the AON prospectus outlines that, and by investing in AON you are consenting to a sole party to invest your funds.

As far a Virwox, interesting thought.  My thought would be that it is governed by its TOS, which probably states that you are buying a license and not a "currency" (ala WSE which used it to protect themselves), but then again a legally grey area since you can exchange it back out.

We are not an emerging market as some like to speculate, but instead we are a frontier market with no legally defined parameters and protections from fradulent and unethical action.  Until we have that we are just going off of trust.

Last edited by AshleighWade (2009-06-09 14:24:07)

Well here have been discussed, somethign out of topic. AON is as legal as any other compnay of SL. Sl is not a phantasy....... is a real fact in the real world...connecet via a 3d platform. So be a "sl" company is not an excuse for nobody. The law is = for everybody.

Anyway, Im understand somepeople are afraid of innovating and make something new just for one day, they are not the kind of people who make the world walk forward.

For those agains AON...whta is the problem we like to trade euros and usd dollars? (at least we play with real coins and not with fantasy paper (linden)

......but apart of all this and the poll, a short anaylsis of the SL financial exchange bring to us the idea that 90% of companys are ponzi schemes.

For example, all we can here agree that right now trade the spred of the lindex is a "free of risk" bussines, or at least somethign close to that (also guvernametnal bond have risk). So, why invest in a compny that the annual profitability is less than that annual profitability of companys like SLG (ace:slg)? Have no sense, take more risk for less income.

In slcapex, no one of the companys there have a better yield than SLG (the minimum benchmark)..and in the other exchanges more of the same, only a few company can beat the "free of risk" benchmark bussines.

With all this I want to say to those "serious" investors, that you are sitted in a big hided ponzi scheme, holded by fantasy paper, with an artificial parity between lindens and usd, in a virtual world where the tyrant (LL) is worst than the worst of the communist dictatorship. (how is possible the tax (tier) of the land is annually 300% the value of buy it?..man that is worst than communist.

Let me give u other example. Last year, SLG paid 35000 USD in fees at lindex market 35000¡¡¡ USD for make a 2000 usd profit after a trding volumen of 1 millions USD. That is the reason why is possible to trade free of risk the lindex, cause the traders are paying to LL, so they guarantee a stable enviroment for traders and they (LL) are well paid for that. That is worst than the tea tax the americans paid to the british before start the independice war.  In our first week of trading AON exchanged 2 millions of usd, only paying like 50 usd.

I like the 3D world, interaction with people around the world, simulate a financial world but not with the price to be an slave of a tyrant company called Linden Labs.

Last edited by HugoLeckrone (2009-06-09 19:06:43)

unfortunately I'm a bit obliged to be interested into this matter in RL.

I have nothing against innovation...however, innovation on the back of RL regulation I don't see as innovative at all. it is even dangerous.

Hugo, you mentioned investment clubs. Fine, there is a problem with those which cannot be neglected. It is the so called money laundering. After new regulation any form of handling others money falls under this regulation. if an investment clubs takes money from third parties he is a financial intermediary and must apply the rules, what means identify properly the source of the money etc (copy passport, proof of private address, information where the moeny is coming from, etc)...if you don't collect his information then you risk that the legal consequences will be more innovative than your product....lol

As long as you act under mother LL terms things are more or like proper also quite in a grey zone. If you leave SL to couple with RL then problems multiply especailly if you cross the bagatelle limits.

However, I have to admit that I'm not a lawyer and regulation is not everywhere applied the same...in New Hampshire it is less strict as I know. So probably that is why your product is accepted at ACE. I cannot say.

if you want we can discuss this inworld

Last edited by caspertrebuchet (2009-06-09 19:51:34)

You can´t feel safe in SL saying "this is other world"..Here, the general laws also must be applicated.

caspertrebuchet wrote:

unfortunately I'm a bit obliged to be interested into this matter in RL.

I have nothing against innovation...however, innovation on the back of RL regulation I don't see as innovative at all. it is even dangerous.

Hugo, you mentioned investment clubs. Fine, there is a problem with those which cannot be neglected. It is the so called money laundering. After new regulation any form of handling others money falls under this regulation. if an investment clubs takes money from third parties he is a financial intermediary and must apply the rules, what means identify properly the source of the money etc (copy passport, proof of private address, information where the moeny is coming from, etc)...if you don't collect his information then you risk that the legal consequences will be more innovative than your product....lol

As long as you act under mother LL terms things are more or like proper also quite in a grey zone. If you leave SL to couple with RL then problems multiply especailly if you cross the bagatelle limits.

However, I have to admit that I'm not a lawyer and regulation is not everywhere applied the same...in New Hampshire it is less strict as I know. So probably that is why your product is accepted at ACE. I cannot say.

if you want we can discuss this inworld

Ashleight, im only saying, that someone can laundry money in AON or in LEM. Both companys are handling others money, as far as LEM asked for money in the past..right? LEM is a fund that invest in companys, AON invest in currencies, (or those company where LEM invested are not in the real world?) is SL only imagination of me of is something under the general laws).  Ladys and gentleman, second life, is a 3D platform in real life.

Basically AON and LEM are =, and I ask, have LEM recorded the data of all shareholders?, where is located the bussines?, where is registered?, is following the SEC regulation or the regulation of the Switherland? Wich law follow about insiders information and other market issues?

All the objections Casper make to me, are the same he must ask for his bussines. There is not other diference with AON than invest in forex. For many users, looks like SL is in Marth and not under the Earth laws. Why AON is under all those jurisdictions but not LEM? It is unfair to treat AON like an illegal when all or 99% companys here have the same problem. or not?

If one day i have to demand Casper  in any court, I will say to the judge: "He is a CEO of a company located in ¿Switerland?, in a exchange  of USA, that invest in electronic companys in a 3D platform..and those companys mostly were  ponzi scheme companys" lol

Why AON have all those legal problems, but not LEM or maybe ZEN?

AshleighWade wrote:

HugoLeckrone wrote:

Why AON have all those legal problems, but not LEM or maybe ZEN?

Because AON (via you) operates in a real world environment trading real world securities.  Im not saying its wrong, Hugo, it just gives me pause.  It's grey.  Who knows...On the other hand LEM operates in a virtual enviroment, trades in virtual securities and limited licensed "virtual currency".  LEM has the defense that it keeps it all "in game", and therefore doesn't cross into a real world trading environment.  On the other hand, if LEM does trade in RL then it too comes into question for me.  Until there are clear international guidelines on how we operate from SL to RL trading its just too risky for me, and therefore I think there needs to be a wall to seperate and distingush the two.  But then again what are the chances of it even registering on some regulators radar?  Chances are LL would shut it down before that happened.

ZEN is entirely different in that it doesn't trade in any securities whatsoever (not even linden currency trading) and operates soley as a estate and content retail company.  We also seek to be well documented, so that we can establish a clear position in the event that our future liability comes into question.  In the event that a real world SL exchange crack down occurs, our plan is to delist into a private partnership.  In that event we would not be subject to any securities law whatsoever.  We also keep everything "in game". 

Its just not clear enough for me to take it into RL at this point.  Between regulation and taxes I don't really want to cross that barrier until something has been better defined.  Like I said, I don't think its wrong (I really don't know one way or another and there is no legal activity I can find to draw on), it just gives me pause because I don't have the nerve to take on that sort of risk.

ok ok, SL is "virtual", "simulated" and a "game"...and cause all that you can be  a "company" unregistered even selling shares in a "demo" IPO. Cause is a game, I can´t take legal actions against you if you are fraudulent. And of course I can run with "company" funds without any legal repercution.

The world is not as you say...SL is not divided from reality even if you think you are gaming. If you have a company, and u call it a company, and u SELL an IPO and in the prospectus u promise something (contract) I can go to a RL court to demand you if I have a problem. and that is why make ZEN a compnay base in the real world.

I understand all is in a "grey" area for many motives. But dont be so sure about your company is not in a "grey" legal area. At least I have a spanish law that allow investmetn clubs, and that law is sovereign and must be respected by courts (after we apply for investment club)..even with problems of international jurisdictions. But, the rules of SL are not sovereign laws...are just LL contracts that can work against the law. Do u knwo what happen when a contract is opposite to any law? Yes, that contract become illegal, so I prefer to be protected by a Sovereign national Law that by the "rules" of a "game". SL dont protect from RL laws. And this is the true. 99% of companys are in a grey area. SL is in RL.

im with the others on this one.

using SL to raise funds to invest in RL financial instruments is inviting RL regulators into SL.